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User talk:Dlatrex
Welcome Hi, welcome to Space Marine Wiki! Thanks for your edit to the File:Imp Dread Best2.jpg page. Please leave a message on my talk page if I can help with anything! -- Unknown Primarch (Talk) 20:33, 15 April 2012 Hi Dlatrex, Do you play Space Marine on PC too? Cykeisme (talk) 21:36, October 7, 2013 (UTC) Here's something that may be useful: http://forums.relicnews.com/showthread.php?263732-Space-Marine-Balance-Update!&p=1045318974 Coldplay worked for Relic, and was in charge of multiplayer balancing. Aside from the explanations of some mechanics (and direct numbers), reading through this may help explain some of the decisions behind why things work the way they do. There's a better source somewhere that I've seen where someone gathered up all the numbers and explanations, but I think it's on a forum that may no longer exist; at any rate, I can't find it anymore In particular, read the post dated "30th Nov 11 2:32 PM". Plasma weapons do in fact have an oddity in their calculation: the effects on armor are doubled. However, from the standpoint of descriptive observation, you are effectively correct in saying that the effects on health are halved. 0th vNov 11ee 2:32 PM Anyway, the oddity of plasma weapon multipliers aside for the moment, "normal" and "armor-only" damage are indeed separate values that are applied sequentially. "Armor-only damage" is applied first, and as the term implies, it stops when armor reaches 0 and does not bleed through to health. "Normal damage" is then applied, which behaves as you would expect, first subtracting any remaining armor and then (if armor is depleted), subtracting from health. Specifically, Ground Pound (with and without DFA perk) damage are very easy to lab and demonstrate exactly the expected results. Likewise for Charge attacks (with and without FC perk). Also, I'm "notCyke" on Steam. I'll add you this weekend, we can lab some damage numbers to demonstrate the trickier damage calculations, and/or get in a few games in :D Cykeisme (talk) 00:47, October 8, 2013 (UTC) On another note, I noticed you mentioned you didn't look at any config files or code (although I believe it's possible to extract some data, I haven't looked into it either). In light of that, that's very impressive then.. the data you have provided regarding run speed, distances traveled during melee combos, and percentages of Dreadnought health depleted from various attacks.. all that was obtained solely from labbing and observation? :O Cykeisme (talk) 01:08, October 8, 2013 (UTC) Hmm, you may be right about the ranged weapons having only a single damage "component" (no regular, health-only, or armor-only damage). I don't recall Coldplay ever making a mention to these damage "components" with regards to ranged weapons. All mention of these were related to either melee weapons or physical melee attacks (Interrupt punches/kicks, shoulder charge, jump pack ground pound etc). The discrepancy we tested the particular Kraken shot that finally breaks armor and scratches the target's health also suggests that the last step (before actually subtracting armor or health) is multiplying it based on whether it is being applied to armor points or health points. So it does seem that you are correct.. that all the ranged attacks (except the charged shots for both plasma gun and cannon) have a single component combined with armor/health damage multipliers. Referring to the same link mentioned earlier: http://forums.relicnews.com/showthread.php?263732-Space-Marine-Balance-Update!&p=1045318974 , the Plasma Gun's normal shots are also described here as having a 2x multiplier to any of its damage applied to armor points (further corroborating your observation). As an aside, I believe the Tactical's plasma gun charged shot has also been described as doing 75 health damage and 75 armor-only damage. Thus, it seems that the charged shot for both the Plasma Gun and Plasma Cannon have separate components, whereas the primary fire have single component with armor multipliers. Is there a method you can devise to confirm that the Plasma Gun and Cannon charged shots are component-based? If so, I suggest that the same methodology be applied to the Plasma Pistol. I reckon that if the Gun and Cannon charged shots are component-based, the Pistol's might be, too. I wasn't too clear on the Lascannon headshot testing data you mentioned: 100 health -> 142 health and 60 armor -> 85, for a total of 227-228 equivilant health. Is this the damage/health remaining after each subsequent shot is applied? Wow, even after tons of playing, I wasn't even aware that damage fall-off due to range applied to all the weapons! I always just made the incorrect assumption that it took more shooting to kill enemies at long range purely because some of my shots weren't registering due to lag, or because I simply missed with some shots. We can start this weekend, at least doing one or two weapons at a time. What's your current methodology, and why did it not work for testing the pistols? I think that aside from checking the death screen armor/health percentages after the test target kills the test shooter, we can also take screenshots and scale the pixel length of the armor and health bars after taking hits. Based on your description of the damage fall-off on the Heavy Bolter page, it seems to work using a similar simple model like in Call of Duty, right? A quick search turns up this graph for Modern Warfare 3, that graphically displays how this model behaves: http://fpstechgaming.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/weapondamageexample.png Cykeisme (talk) 11:54, November 18, 2013 (UTC) Did you notice that the original author of most of the content here put in very detailed information on the ranged damage falloff for some of the campaign weapons? http://spacemarine.wikia.com/wiki/Bolt_Pistol_(campaign) If this is accurate, then the damage doesn't fall off gradually, but has range "bands".. and I would assume it works similarly in multiplayer. The "bands" aren't scaled linearly either O.o Cykeisme (talk) 13:02, November 18, 2013 (UTC) I suspected the stylized left and right ends of the shield bar might give us some trouble. I assume it scales linearly (Coldplay specifically stated this on the RelicNews forum), but calibrating properly could be a bit of a bother. Upload a few of the screenshots to imgur.com, and link me? The 50% screenshot (from the lascannon hit with double armor setting) is probably the most vital one. If you couldn't make any sense of it, I suspect I won't be able to either.. nevertheless, I'll take a crack at it and see if it stumps me as well :D Cykeisme (talk) 08:00, November 26, 2013 (UTC) Due to the design of both ends of the graphical meter, it's difficult to determine which pixel is the exact start (left end) and end (right end) of a full armor meter. Also, on a partially full meter, it's difficult to determine the specific cut-off point of the right end of the partially filled yellow indicator. Right now, aside from the 50% indicator, all our other images are of unknown damage amounts (because we're not sure of the range dropoff yet). I suggest we need to take a few more pictures of known damages (taken after sustaining shots from close range) for calibration. If we had at least three known points, e.g. 30%, 50%, 70% (we already have 50%), it should be be easy to determine the exact start and end of the meter. ..or at least, I think so! The Assault Cannon and Reaper Autocannon won't really be that hard, they're actually fairly accurate on the first shot, which will serve our purposes. The recoil-induced spraying only really kicks in during extended full-auto fire. Technically, it looks like you've already done the Meltagun's damage drop-off values, and uploaded it to the weapon page :D The plasma cannon and vengeance launcher having no damage drop-off is actually expected, since the separate entity it shoots off shouldn't be affected by range (unless the projectile's damage had time-decay). However, I'm also surprised that the plasma pistol (which is an instant-hit raytrace like the plasma gun) has no damage drop-off; perhaps this was an oversight on the developers' part? Or perhaps they figured that the recoil kickback they added is sufficient for limiting its long-range abilities? We can do the standard bolter and the dreadnought weapons this weekend; I have a feeling the standard bolter rounds would have the same ranged damage drop-off as the Kraken bolt rounds, but we'll see soon enough! On another note, I've been looking at the perked Thunder Hammer's damage numbers that are on the wiki page now (first hit doing 300 damage). Doesn't that mean that it will fail to kill a FNP + IH Devastator? With FNP: (300 * 0.7) = 210 ..this shouldn't even kill a Devastator with no IH which can eat 225 normal damage (100 + 125 = 225). However, the damage definitely seems to agree with the Dreadnought's durability extrapolated from ranged weapon effects. It takes two full Hammer combos (six hits in total) to bring down a Dreadnought, which the current numbers would add up to 2800 damage, coinciding well with the estimated 2500 health. I believe Coldplay's "Balance Update" thread on the Relic News forum pre-dates the release of the Dreadnought Assault DLC. It's entirely possible that he set the Hammer at 2000 damage during January 2012's Balance Update, but later reduced it for the Dreadnought Assault DLC release (to prevent it from being able to 2-hit kill the Dreadnought). I'd like to run a test using the perked Thunder Hammer against an IH + FNP Devastator in a double armor game to see what the damage is like.. or you already run this to get the Killing Blow damage numbers? Cykeisme (talk) 12:10, November 29, 2013 (UTC) Wow, good work mate! I didn't actually look into it, got any direct links to the forum threads with the tutorials and/or tools you used to extract the data? I guess I could pore over it too and see if I can make anything out of it. It'll be great to have the numbers right from the source, but that's not to say that the practical ingame testing was not worth it; I think it'll be a great feeling to validate and confirm the values derived from the testing! Cykeisme (talk) 18:58, January 23, 2014 (UTC) Awesome! I'm gonna grab the tools and check out those files tonight. DO NOT WORRY, I AM A GENIUS. (Now let's see how far my confidence levels plunge once I actually see them :D ). Cykeisme (talk) 09:20, January 28, 2014 (UTC) Regarding the Plasma Gun dispute I graciously accept your apology. Never doubt me again. :P Just kidding. Thank you very much for the note you left me. I'm happy that this is resolved, and I appreciate all the detail with which you elaborated. I see you've done some terrific work here. How on Earth were you able to gain access to the source code? All I have is the results of simple tests (do damage, let other guy kill me, read health/armor values from dead screen). I wouldn't mind being able to talk to you more about stuff like damage values, but this wiki thing is not overly convenient. Could you add me as a friend on Steam? Searching for Markus Ramikin will give only one result. Markus Ramikin (talk) 20:53, August 23, 2014 (UTC) Cyke agrees about merging weapon articles, but he raised an interesting point: what about weapons that have different names? Like Thunder Hammer and Daemon Maul. We figure a joint title, like "Thunder Hammer / Daemon Maul" would be accurate but maybe a bit clumsy, while a simple "Thunder Hammer" article that also speaks of the Daemon Maul as the Chaos equivalent might make Chaos-favoring players unhappy. ;) What are your thoughts on this? Markus Ramikin (talk) 17:36, August 25, 2014 (UTC) Damage type conventions/formatting Sorry about more or less dropping off from wiki activity, but I do occasionally pop up to test and fix something, and I noticed this: http://spacemarine.wikia.com/wiki/Plasma_Gun_%28Space_Marine%29#Performance http://spacemarine.wikia.com/wiki/Plasma_Pistol_%28Space_Marine%29#Performance As I am sure you remember, the charged shots for these weapons have the same mechanics: an armor-only damage component followed by universal damage, 75+75 for the gun and 75+50 for the pistol. (Same as DFA.) But the tables use different conventions for presenting this info: the pistol charged shot shows summed armor damage (125), while the plasma gun charged shot shows the armor-only damage component (75). What's worse, the plasma gun normal and charged shot have the same conventions ("health" and "armor" damage columns) even though the normal shot has completely different mechanics (either-or damage, rather than a sum). Someone coming into this game/wiki without already knowing everything you and I know has no chance of understanding how these weapons work based on this. I did write this sentence into the plasma gun article: "Each individual shot does 30 damage to health or 60 to armor, while a charged shot deals 75 armor damage ''plus ''75 normal damage", which I hope clarifies it, but still... What I would like is more helpful labels on those columns. Perhaps the DFA-like damages could have columns "armor-only" and "universal" or something like that, to make it more obvious and intuitive? And the standard type damage tables should give you the damage + armor multiplier instead of two damage values? This may make the mechanics clearer, but then again it might not, and the downside of that last one would be that people would have to do the math instead of being given the actual number... I can't think of an ideal solution, but the current situation is a mess. Thoughts? Markus Ramikin (talk) 20:29, December 3, 2014 (UTC) Hm, could you show up on Steam some time today or tomorrow? Markus Ramikin (talk) 20:19, December 4, 2014 (UTC) http://spacemarine.wikia.com/wiki/True_Grit - have you seen those errors in the table? Markus Ramikin (talk) 17:05, February 16, 2015 (UTC) It is my pleasure to serve the Emperor! :) I recently jumped back into playing multi-player again and figured I'd do some tidying-up while waiting in queues. Rydiak (talk) 16:24, September 14, 2015 (UTC) Fair assessment. I'll return it to .505 if that is EXACTLY what the game code has stored for a value. Rydiak (talk) 23:41, September 14, 2015 (UTC) Hey bro, I was wondering where you got the numbers for the melta gun damage infobox and table. Currently they say it's 200 damage with a 1.125 armor multiplier for a 225 vs armor. My experience is consistent with a flat 225 damage with no armor multiplier. For example, if I hit an Iron Halo dev (100 HP, 175 AR), it leaves 50 health. Same thing if I hit an assault with Impenetrable, it leaves 3% health, which makes sense given 225*0,7=157.5. If the damage were lower vs health, the amount of health left would be 56 in the first case and 14 in the second. Am I missing something? Markus Ramikin (talk) 17:41, October 10, 2015 (UTC) It won't be reflected with point blank shots, but I suppose it would show at 12 meters? I am so not testing this. ;) Markus Ramikin (talk) 06:15, October 12, 2015 (UTC)